ArtMuse ArtTalks: Host Grace Anna Interviews Author Paula Byrne
In this special episode from our ArtMuse ArtTalks series, host Grace Anna is joined by the renowned British author, Paula Bryne. Throughout the course of the interview Grace Anna ask Paula Byrne about her biographies on both Dido Elizabeth Belle and Mary Robinson, as well as her recently published historical fiction novel, Six Weeks By the Sea, based on the famed female author, Jane Austen.
If you have not yet listened to ArtMuse’s two part episode on Dido Elizabeth Belle, which shares her full life-story, then we encourage you to listen as an accompanying episode to this interview. Season Three of ArtMuse, which explores the life-stories of artist models who were also performers in their own right, will kick off with a two part episode on Mary Robinson. This interview with Paula Byrne, which deep dives into Mary Robinson’s story, is the perfect teaser to ArtMuse's Season Three opener.
Listen to this special episode of ArtMuse ArtTalks:
This episode is produced by Kula Production Company.
Paula Bryne is a British author and literary critic. She has written several acclaimed and best-selling biographies, including her biographies on Dido Elizabeth Belle, Mary Robinson, and Jane Austen. She is also the founder and Chief Executive of ReLit, a charity dedicated to promoting literature for mental health.
You can purchase Bryne’s biography on Dido Elizabeth Belle HERE.
You can purchase Bryne’s biography on Mary Robinson HERE.
You can purchase Byrne’s latest novel, Six Weeks by the Sea, HERE.
Dido Elizabeth Belle is considered to be England’s first female aristocrat of color. Dido was born to an enslaved mother and white father. As a child, she was brought from the Caribbean to England, and taken in by her great uncle, Lord Mansfield, who happened to be the most powerful judge in all of England. Dido was thus raised in his home, at Kenwood House, which today is a historical house and museum. As a judge, Lord Mansfield ruled over many important cases pertaining to slavery, and it is believed that Dido’s presence in his home influenced his sympathetic rulings that eventually paved the way for abolition in England. Dido was famously captured in a portrait by David Martin, a copy of which today hangs at Kenwood House in honor of her.
Mary Robinson was an 18th century British actress, poet, writer, activist, and intellectual. During her days as a leading actress on Drury Lane, Mary famously caught the eye of the Prince of Wales, whom she had an affair with. Later in life, after a tragic accident that took away her ability to walk, Mary Robinson shifted courses, and became a prolific writer. In her long writing career, Mary wrote several novels, collections of poems, plays, and published essays. Much of her writing was radical by nature and advocated for both women’s rights and the abolition of slavery. In her lifetime, Mary was painted by the renowned portraitists Sir Joshua Reynolds, Thomas Gainsborough, George Romney, and John Hoppner.
INTERVIEW TRANSCRIPT
Hi listeners, host Grace Anna here. Today I am thrilled to share a special episode from our ArtMuse ArtTalks series, in which I am joined by the renowned British author, Paula Bryne. Throughout the course of the interview I ask Paula Byrne about her biographies on both Dido Elizabeth Belle and Mary Robinson, as well as her recently published historical fiction novel, Six Weeks By the Sea, based on the famed female author, Jane Austen.
If you have not yet listened to ArtMuse’s two part episode on Dido Elizabeth Belle, which shares her full life-story and quotes Paula Bryne’s wonderful biography throughout, then we encourage you to listen as an accompanying episode to this interview. We are also so excited to share that Season Three of ArtMuse, which explores the life-stories of artist models who were also performers in their own right, will kick off with a two part episode on Mary Robinson. This interview with Paula Byrne, in which we deep dive into Mary Robinson’s story, is the perfect teaser to our Season Three opener.
For those who haven’t listened yet to ArtMuse’s episode on Dido Elizabeth Belle. Dido is considered to be England’s first female aristocrat of color. Dido was born to an enslaved mother and white father. As a child, she was brought to England, and taken in by her great uncle, Lord Mansfield, who happened to be the most powerful judge in all of England. Dido was thus raised in his home, at Kenwood House, which is today a historical house and museum. As a judge, Lord Mansfield ruled over many important cases pertaining to slavery, and it is believed that Dido’s presence in his home influenced his sympathetic rulings that eventually paved the way for abolition in England. Dido’s life story is undeniably remarkable. Dido was famously captured in a portrait by David Martin, a copy of which today hangs at Kenwood House in honor of her.
And as a brief introduction to Mary Robinson. Mary Robinson was an 18th century British actress, poet, writer, activist, and intellectual. During her days as a leading actress on Drury Lane, Mary famously captured the eye of the Prince of Wales, whom she had an affair with. Later in life, after a tragic accident took away her ability to walk, Mary Robinson shifted courses, and became a prolific writer. In her long writing career, Mary wrote several novels, collections of poems, plays, and published essays. Much of her writing was radical by nature and advocated for both women’s rights and the abolition of slavery. In her lifetime, Mary was painted by the renowned portraitists Sir Joshua Reynolds, Thomas Gainsborough, George Romney, and John Hoppner. Despite her major accomplishments, after her death, Mary fell into relative obscurity. And when she is remembered, it is often for her affair with the Prince of Wales, rather than her intellectual pursuits. ArtMuse’s upcoming episode on Mary Robinson instead honors her immense career as an actress, writer, intellectual, and activist, and as the brilliant, talented, and brave woman she was.
Paula Bryne is a British author and literary critic. She has written several acclaimed and best-selling biographies, including her biographies on Dido Elizabeth Belle and Mary Robinson. She is also the founder and Chief Executive of ReLit, a charity dedicated to promoting literature for mental health.
So with that, let’s dive into my fascinating conversation with the author, Paula Byrne.
Grace Anna: Hi, listeners host Grace Anna here. Today I'm joined by the author Paula Byrne to discuss her biographies on Dido Elizabeth Belle, who we have a two part episode on, as well as Mary Robinson, who will kick off season three of ArtMuse this October. We will also dive into Paula Byrne’s recently published historical fiction novel on Jane Austen, Six Weeks by the Sea.
Paula, thank you so much for being here with me today. I'm so excited to dive into your work. Your biographies on Dido Elizabeth Belle and Mary Robinson were so important in my own research for those episodes, and I quote you throughout the episodes, and I'm really looking forward to discussing these women with you today, as well as your new novel.
But to begin, I'd love to start with discussing your biography on Dido Belle. Some of us may be familiar with Dido Belle, if our listeners have listened to ArtMuse's episode on Dido Elizabeth Belle. But for those who haven't yet listened, could you give us a brief introduction into who Dido Belle was and what inspired you to write her biography?
Paula: Yes, absolutely. Thank you for having me. It's lovely to be here.
So I think Dido Elizabeth Belle’s story is so fascinating and interesting. Her father was Sir John Lindsay, who was a naval captain in the British Navy, and her mother was an enslaved woman and he was devoted to the union of Dido’s mother and he brought her back to England, probably around the age of five, we're not entirely sure, to be raised by her great uncle. Now, this is where the story gets interesting because you just think- okay, well lots of people in the 18th century did that and lots of people who had mixed heritage children did that. That's not unusual. What is really unusual about Dido Belle, is that this just wasn't any old uncle.This was the Lord Chief Justice Lord Mansfield, who was a very prominent figure in the abolition of the slave trade. So one just cannot help but think that the fact that he is raising this beloved child who he loves, has got to influence someone who has been told that African people are animals.They're less than human. And yet this is his great niece. This is his flesh and blood. This is his beloved nephew's daughter who then becomes a daughter to him. So I think it's just so extraordinary. This whole story.
And of course, the reason I wrote the book was because the film was being made, the Amma Asante film about Belle and I'd written about Dido Belle previously with my Jane Austen work because I was so fascinated by the portrait, which we'll come to later probably. And also, that Jane Austen had an interesting connection to Dido’s cousin Elizabeth Murray, who was raised alongside her. And Jane Austen actually met the girl in the portrait. So it seems to me inconceivable that Jane Austen would not have known Dido Belle’s story because she's talked about in the press. She's seen as incredibly accomplished and impressive. So my editor said- oh the film's come out and they love you to write the accompanying book. And I said- well, we don't know very much about Dido Belle. We actually only know eight facts. But they said it's fine. You know, this is still an important story to tell and we can probably use other stories about mixed race women like Dido Belle to bring her story to life. And now we know more than we knew when I wrote the biography!
Grace Anna: Thank you for that introduction. That is so fascinating about Jane Austen! I didn't realize that. And of course Lady Elizabeth and Dido Belle grew up together. They were really like sisters in that sense. So I'm sure that if she was associated with Lady Elizabeth, she would've at least heard of Dido Belle, so that's a really fascinating connection.
Paula: A hundred percent. And you know, she goes for tea with Elizabeth Murray, who's married then, she’s Elizabeth Finch-Hatton, and she plays with her son because Jane Austin loved children. And no one's not gonna know, you know about Dido Belle. Like, nobody's not gonna know that. And it brings Jane Austen really close to that story, which when she writes about a mixed heritage woman in Sanditon, you just can't help thinking that she was thinking about Dido Belle, who is a rich heiress in Jane Austen’s novel Sanditon. But often when mixed race women came, and men indeed, in the early 19th century, they were wealthy. Their white fathers wanted them to have the best of education. And often in places like Jamaica, they couldn't get into schools because the schools were quite racist, so the schools would say only whites. But Britain was like- yeah, great. Brilliant. Bring it on. We don't mind. Great. Fantastic. You've got money. Brilliant. We'll have the money. We don't care. So there were more people than you'd realize coming to Britain for an education and then often making good marriages and almost infiltrating into those upper echelons. And nobody cared. Nobody cared. It's like if you've got money, money protects you.
Grace Anna: But like you say, what is so interesting, and it almost feels like fate, that she didn't just end up in just an aristocratic family, she ended up in the Lord Chief Justice's house, who was her great uncle, the man who was ruling in very significant cases pertaining to slavery and ruled sympathetically towards slaves. And the idea that her presence in his household may have impacted his decisions and therefore impacted history is so fascinating. And just to read a little quote from your book, which I think is so beautifully written, you say: “The story of Dido Belle and Lord Mansfield is about individuals who changed history…Would Mansfield have described…slavery as “odious” and have made his significant ruling in the Somerset case if he wasn’t so personally involved in the “slavery cause” as a result of his adoption of Dido?”.
Their stories are so intertwined. Also, the fact that Lady Elizabeth eventually gets married, and Lady Mansfield passes away within the same time period, within a year or so of each other, and it's just Dido and Lord Mansfield living in Kenwood House for quite a few years. So really their relationship too is so close and so tightly woven, their influence on history but also their personal relationship. I mean, she helped him write his correspondences and letters in his late life and something he didn't hide from the people receiving the letters. I think there's one letter where he says: “this was written in Dido’s hand”. So their stories are just so fascinating and their relationship is just so fascinating and is so important for us to know as we walk into Kenwood house, which is now a wonderful museum. So, yeah, it's just fascinating.
Paula: But those words are really important, you know- “odious”. They carry massive weight. And Lord Mansfield's devotion to Dido is just so profound and moving. Because she was so accomplished and clever and brilliant and he truly, truly loved her. There's no question that, you know, he commissioned a painting for her so that she would always be able to look at him and people gossiped and there was a not very nice American who said, “I trust that relationship's not vicious”, which is like, it's sexual. He really fancies her. People say he's too fond of her. And it's just so horrible and it's just not what this was about because he'd raised this child from the age of five. And that connection was incredible, the two girls actually, but the connection he had with Dido. You can just feel it's very authentic and it's very genuine. That connection. And the fact that he freed her. I think he'd have been terrified. I think he’d have thought, “oh my God, what would happen when I die? Will she somehow become enslaved?” You know, I think he was terrified. I mean, he couldn't have made that clearer that it was really important that she's a free woman and it's just the most extraordinary story.
And we need to think about how we view history because when we suppress these stories, we don't know about these stories. We have a particular way of viewing history through the prism of privilege and whiteness, and you suddenly just think, it just wasn't like that. Actually the late 18th century was actually more complex, more nuanced. At the end of the day, they loved each other and I think love is important too. You know, you love that person no matter the color of your skin or whatever, you just love them. And so I believe that she did have a very profound effect on his rulings in a very subtle personal lived experience way.
Grace Anna: Yeah, absolutely. It did feel like a very paternal love. And it should be noted too, that Lord and Lady Mansfield did not have children of their own. Lady Mansfield was significantly older than Lord Mansfield, I believe, so she may have not been able to have children. So Lady Elizabeth and Dido Belle really filled that role in their lives of genuine children and they as caretakers and that paternal protection and paternal love was real.
And yeah, it's quite remarkable that after he died he not only frees her, but he gives her a significant amount of money to be able to care for herself, knowing that the world was the way it was, and he wouldn't be there anymore to protect her. So it's remarkable.
Paula: Yeah. You make such a good point about their childlessness because when you don't have children, particularly at that time, and for women who didn't really have a lot of other things going on in their lives, it must have been a blow to her. But to have these two lovely girls and to raise them as their own is hugely significant. I'm glad you raised that point about their childlessness.
Grace Anna: And to speak on how they celebrated these two girls, of course, there is the marvelous portrait of Dido Belle alongside Lady Elizabeth. Dido’s depiction is so enticing with her smile almost like the Mona Lisa. You're just curious, what is she thinking? What is she trying to tell us with that slightly mischievous playful smile?
So could we talk about her portrait? Maybe talking about how her depiction as a woman of color differed from other depictions of people of color from that time and how the portrait really encapsulates this story that we're talking about and the remarkableness of Dido Belle’s story?
Paula: Well, I think if you look at other portraits of the time, and there's another Jane Austin connection here, that Jane Austen's cousin Eliza, who was born and raised in Bengal in India, had a beloved servant called Clarinda. And quite recently this portrait was discovered and initially it was thought to be another family member, but it's now been proven that it’s Eliza who became Eliza Austin and Clarinda was so loved, and in Eliza's letters she talks about how Clarinda is a member of the family. But you still get the sense when you look at that portrait of Clarinda that she’s still a servant.
What the extraordinary thing about Dido's portrait is, is that she's not. So she is painted as an equal. So her dress is really beautiful. She's moving, she's in motion. Her scarf is sort of floating in the wind, and her cousin sort of looks a bit imprisoned in her big hoop dress. And you know, she seems very stilted. Whereas, I always felt, and I think I'm not the first person to think this or say this, that the painter was in love with Dido because it's almost like you can't even see Elizabeth Murray. He is just so blown away by Dido and the dimple and her beauty. But there's a charisma there. There's a massive energy and vitality and charisma and it's almost like you can't see Elizabeth Murray. He's just like- you are boring. But wow, you are something else. You know? And you feel that when you look at the painting, you just think she is alive in that painting. And I think that is unusual for the time.
And then really for years and years after the painting was painted, the family did think she was a servant. And nobody stopped to think- well, no servant's gonna be wearing silk like that, or is going to be the focus of the painting. So for a long time, people just assumed, and seeing through the prism of probably quite racist history, that she must have been a servant. And then only afterwards it was discovered that of course she's not a servant. Look at her, look at her in that painting. So I think the painting is really hugely significant. And also that obviously Mansfield wanted it to be seen that they were equals. So that he's not saying Dido needs to look subservient, Dido needs to be lower down. Often you find people are painted on the floor or lower, like Clarinda is lower than the other Austen members, Jane Austen’s aunt, who was her father's sister. But the fact that Dido is higher than Elizabeth Murray is quite significant for me. And as I said, she's in motion. And you just fall in love with her, don't you? You just, the viewer, the gazer, you can't really take your eyes off her. And I think that's because the painter can't take his eyes off her.
Grace Anna: It's so true. She really does steal the show. And it's interesting because from what we know of letters from visitors of Kenwood House meeting Dido and visiting Lord Mansfield, we know a little bit about her personality and that she did have a little bit of a feistiness. There was a mention of her, and I forget the words that were actually used, but the way I interpreted those quotes was that she definitely had a big personality. She wasn't afraid to show her personality and she did have a bit of a fiery, quirky nature. And I think this portrait speaks for itself as well in terms of that. You kind of get that sense. I love what you said too about her free movement. And Lady Elizabeth is sitting on a chair reading a book. She's very enclosed and Dido is this kind of free spirit that's bounding across the canvas. So I think the way you described it is beautiful and the portrait really is where her legacy stands.
And I have a quote here from you, to that point, where you write, “Though Dido’s grave is lost, and she has no living descendants, her painting remains a testimony to her extraordinary legacy. Striding back from the orangery, with her quizzical, dimpled smile, making no apology for her presence, and her vitality. She lives on forever in this portrait, rising out of the darkness into the light”. And that's just such a gorgeous way to describe the importance of this portrait and how it just captures Dido and her spirit and makes her impossible to be forgotten.
And you also mentioned that Dido, up until recently, was assumed to be a servant. So can we talk about her rediscovery? How was it discovered that Dido Elizabeth Belle was actually Dido Elizabeth Belle and not just a house servant? And why is it important to share her real and true story?
Paula: I think in terms of the portrait's history, it was around about the eighties that some art historian just said- hang on, this is not the portrait of a servant. I think it was actually the mid seventies, that this historian, this expert said, this doesn't ring true. This is not a servant. She is dominating this portrait. And it was then the family, the Murray family, did start to look into this and then slowly the pieces of the jigsaw started to come together. And the thing about the pieces of the jigsaw is that they're still coming together!
So a really recent jigsaw puzzle piece, which has recently come out, was that her father, John Lindsay roundabout her 21st birthday, commissioned a wonderful ship called Dido. And I didn't know about this when I wrote the book. And it can't be a coincidence. It's in her 21st year. And this is a very extraordinary move on John Lindsay’s part because this is saying- I'm proud and there's a picture of HMS Dido and it's very clear that it's not Dido the carthage queen because ships that were named after goddesses, you knew that, but it's very obvious this is a ship for his daughter reaching her 21st birthday. So things keep popping up. And we know more about Dido’s mother now and that her father gave her land in Pensacola.
So, and this is a thing about what your main question is saying is, just think about the stories that are buried. If that historian hadn't said- hang on, that doesn't make sense to me. She doesn't look like a servant, let's push that. Then they go back and stop poking around. Oh my goodness. Wow. Look at this. Then they go and look at the newspaper columns in the 18th century. Oh, she's mentioned here, she’s mentioned there. Then a couple years ago we just said this ship was commissioned by Captain John Lindsay, HMS Dido, you know what else is gonna come through? But the fact is, you just need that first person to say- there's another story there, like something else is going on.
And, you know, I've recently discovered a story about someone similar to Dido. She was mixed race and she married into the aristocracy. Her name was Lady Sarah Brocas. And nobody knows this story. I wrote a piece for The Times a couple of weeks ago as I discovered this story and I said- how many more Lady Sarah’s were there? She was incredibly wealthy. She married into the aristocracy. She was mixed race. Her mother was an enslaved woman who ended up living in Manchester in the North of England. Lady Brocas had five children. She was totally assimilated into the English aristocracy. And it just makes you think about how we view history. We just think- this is crazy. Nobody really cares in England, no one's batting an eyelid. They're just like, yeah, that's fine. Nobody's writing about this in a derogatory way. So I feel with Dido’s story, it's just the tip of the iceberg probably and then finding Lady Brocas and thinking, wow.
And she does even better than Dido. Like Dido does pretty well in terms of legacy, portrait marrying happily, she gets a happy ending. Lady Brocas ends up this chatelaine of two enormous estates, Beaurepaire, and would you believe it, it’s actually called Wokefield Park, because it's very woke. At the entrance of Wokefield Park are these beautiful raw shrine gates that were designed by Sir John Soames, in which there are two African heads on these gate posts and you just think- this is extraordinary. And for years and years and years, no one's talked about this. It's been hidden. Shrouded, veiled, almost like it didn't happen.
And you know, Jane Austen is on the cusp of this because when in Sanditon she writes about this mixed race heiress called Ms. Lamb, who everyone adores because she's wealthy and sort of beautiful and all of that, and you just think that Jane Austen is at the cusp of this, she's introducing this really interesting mixed race woman who has power. And the reason she has power is because she has money. And she has beauty and what she says goes, and she's fed asses milk like Cleopatra. You know, you feel like she's Cleopatra. No one's looking down on Ms. Lamb, no one. And to me it feels that Jane Austen is riding that wave of- of course no one's gonna look down on her. She's incredible. What’s her story? And I just wonder whether Ms. Lamb could ever have been written without Jane Austen's knowledge of Dido Belle or Lady Brocas.
And the thing about Lady Brocas, which I haven't told you about, was that Jane Austen's brother knew the family incredibly well and went to dinner with them all the time, so there's an absolute direct Austen link. So the idea that someone would say- can you believe this mixed race woman is beautiful, charismatic, rich, clever, marries into aristocracy, has two massive mansions? Jane Austen would go, yeah, it happened. Like my brother knows her. Big deal.
Grace Anna: It's almost like it's hiding in plain sight. The portrait's been there. Jane Austen has written about women like this, and yet history has overlooked these stories. So yes, returning to Jane Austen's work, returning to the portrait, looking at it again, thinking- hey, something about this doesn't quite look like just a depiction of a servant. It's so important because it allows us to revisit and rewrite history and include these incredible stories. And that story sounds incredible too. And who knows how many more stories that will come out like this or how much more we'll learn about Dido Belle. And that is so fascinating about Sir. Lindsay’s boat called Dido, which he made on her 21st first birthday. Of course there is a direct connection there, so that is fascinating. I'm so excited to see what else comes of Dido’s story.
I encourage everyone when you visit Kenwood house, which is an amazing museum, I love their collection. Think about Dido Belle. Think about how Dido Belle walked those halls and think about her story and think about her impact on history because her story is so much a part of that place and a part of English history. So it's exciting to be on this precipice of discovery, and I'm very excited to see what else we learn about Dido as the years go on.
Grace Anna: I want to shift our conversation now to another incredible woman who you wrote about, Mary Robinson. You wrote a fantastic biography on Mary Robinson, which I absolutely loved. And listeners, we will be beginning seasons three on Mary Robinson, so you will be learning all about her life from start to finish. Because our listeners are not yet familiar with Mary Robinson, can you give us a little introduction to her and her life and her immense story?
Paula: Well, she's another, again, one of these invisible lost women. I came across her when I was researching my first book on Jane Austen in theater, and I came across this actress called Mary Robinson, who was nicknamed in the London Press “Perdita”, who is Shakespeare's lost child in the Winter’s Tale. And I just thought, “I don’t really know about her, I've never heard of her”. You hear of all the other great actresses. And I thought, “I don't really know Mary Robinson”. I was in the Huntington Library at the time. I was researching another book. And I just thought, “I want to know more about this woman!” And I started digging around and then was absolutely shocked by her life story. I was like, “oh my goodness, why do we not know about this woman?!”
So she was born in Bristol. She was educated by Hannah Moore, the great educationalist and then became an actress in London. Her father left the family and she was married off at a very young age, had a child, went into debtors prison because her husband was in debt, lived with her husband and wrote poetry patronized by Georgina Spencer, the Duchess of Chatsworth, and then she left prison. She separated from my husband. She caught the eye of the Prince of Wales. He was very young at the time, when she was playing the part of Perdita in Shakespeare's Winter's Tale, it was Garrick’s adaptation, but that's neither here nor there. And they started an affair and she was a little bit older than him, but it really propelled her into stardom. And it’s really interesting. I think she was called the first celebrity in a time when “celebrity” was being formed. She made the press. I mean, I went through all the newspapers of the 18th century, the ones that are available, and she's there every day. She is sort of like the Madonna of the 18th century- late 18th century, early 19th century. You know, what she wore was reported on. Her new carriage she was in was reported on. You know what she did, everything about her.
But the really extraordinary thing was that she had an accident in her early twenties, which rendered her really unable to walk and she didn't even give up then, she reinvented herself. She'd already been a published poet, but she reinvented herself as a proto-feminist. She wrote female treatises, amazing novels. Her first novel sold out in one day, Vancenza, or The Dangers of Incredulity. She went on to write many, many more novels. Wrote political pieces on the state of women, that women should go to university, and all these amazing things. She was the poetry editor of the Morning Post. She gave Samuel Taylor Coleridge and William Wordsworth their first break.
And she was unbreakable. Like, she was absolutely the most beautiful woman in England. She was painted over 80 times. She had such a modern face- talking about paintings of Dido. She has such a modern face. She's just so stunningly beautiful. And people said, of all the portraits of Mary Robinson, none of them did justice to her beauty because they said her beauty was beyond what a painter could do. But she was more than that. She was so intellectual and clever. And Coleridge said, “she's a woman of undoubted genius”. She was a great mother. Her story was an absolute inspiration and it hadn't been told before.
Grace Anna: It's unbelievable- so many aspects of her story. And that was a great introduction to her. Of course, what I was most struck by is, as you described, is that she's this beautiful woman, she's this popular actress, she has this affair with the Prince of Wales, which of course ends up being pretty devastating for her. She then has an affair with Tarleton, this big shot soldier who had just come back from the Revolutionary War, and then she has this tragic accident, which leaves her unable to essentially walk. She's bedridden. She's confined to the house, once being this social butterfly that everyone's writing about and at every public event, and the theater.
And instead of being defeated, she embraces her new situation and shifts courses and becomes one of the most prolific female writers of her time. I mean, I think I have it here, she went on to write seven novels, four collections of poems, two plays and several published essays, much of which were radical by nature. She wrote essays about abolition. She wrote feminist manifestos. I have a quote from her here in one of those manifestos. She says, “Let me ask this plain and rational question, is not a woman, a human being, gifted with all the feelings that inhabit the bosom of a man?” She really is the first celebrity. She's also one of the earliest feminists of modern history and her resilience, her bravery, her fiery spirit is just remarkable. And I agree, I was so touched by her story and all the ebbs and flows, the ups and downs, the twists and turns that her life took is just unbelievable.
Can we talk a bit about her portraits? Because she was, as you mentioned, painted many times and she was painted by some of the biggest portraitists of her day: Sir Joshua Reynolds. Thomas Gainsborough, George Romney. Do you have any favorite portraits of her and do you want to talk a bit about those portraits of her?
Paula: I do love her portraits at the Wallace Collection in London. They have four portraits. And three of the larger ones, one's a miniature, but the three larger ones, they used to always be hung on the same wall. And when you see those three portraits together, you're just blown away. It's the Romney, the Reynolds, and the Gainsborough, and you're just like, wow! You know, they are extraordinary.
But I really have a soft spot for the Reynolds because of course she met Banister Tarleton in Reynolds studio and that's when they began this great love affair. And she looked so formidable in that first Reynolds. She's painted in the style of Ruben's wife, black and white. And again, a lot of his, “he hasn't captured her beauty”, but I really love it because she looks so like- don't mess with me. You know? And she sort of confronts the gaze of the viewer and in a way that just says- don't underestimate me. I am a really strong woman. And I love that. But I love the second Reynolds even more because obviously after her accident she's trying to reinvent herself. And she wants to be taken seriously as a writer, as she should be, and she turns back to Reynolds. And the second Reynolds is so incredibly beautiful and it shows. So it's a seascape. The sea is behind her. And she just looks sad and it's so poignant and plangent and just really really gorgeous.
So I don't like the sort of chocolate boxy paintings of her. You know, she was so beautiful, so of course you'd want to paint her like that. But Reynolds, because he was a friend and because he understood her intelligence and she wrote poetry to him, and Reynolds is a very interesting painter and a very interesting individual. They had a special relationship. And I think you can see that in the paintings. And the fact she turned over to the second portrait to say- okay, here's my new image. I want to look like this new woman. I don't want to be how you painted me before. And he goes along and he does it. So to me, it’s extraordinary. So to answer your question, the second Reynolds is my favorite.
Grace Anna: I'd have to agree. I think that is my favorite too. But it is remarkable. I mean, she has these four portraits that are painted right after the Prince has dumped her. Essentially, the Prince dumps her. It's a huge disappointment. He had promised her all of this money and convinced her to quit her acting career. She does so believing him. He then leaves her. He does not pay her that money. And she is left high and dry. And what she does, instead of giving up as we're saying, she's a very resilient woman, is she has these four portraits painted by the four biggest painters of the day. And they're exhibited at that year's big annual exhibition, the summer exhibition, on public display.
And as you described of Sir Joshua Reynolds' first portrai- she's very confident. She is looking at you. She's almost looking at the Prince directly. Like- you can't bring me down. And you see this strong woman and they're fabulous. They're fabulous portraits. And similarly, George Romney's portrait of her, she's looking directly at the viewer. She has this sort of strong attitude. And those portraits served a purpose at that time. That was her public comeback. Her message that she's going to be okay. That she doesn't need the Prince, and maybe in the end he's the one that's losing out because she's so beautiful and amazing.
But then we have this portrait a few years later by Sir Joshua Reynolds, as you described, after her accident, and after she lost her ability to walk and had this immense tragedy in her life. And she is portrayed in an extremely different way. She is sitting. She is not making direct eye contact. She is looking out at sea. The atmosphere is stormy. There is a forlorn energy in the painting that's palpable. And again, this is intentional not just from Sir Joshua Reynolds, but also from Mary Robinson. She is once again announcing this change in her life. And she's always sort of had this propensity towards moodiness. She describes in her childhood, in Bristol, going to the church and listening to the church's organ. And she sort of always had this nature, but she's really leaning into it here. And yes, she's making an announcement that she's a changed woman.
And in the end, Perdita means “the lost one". And she did lose so much in her life. She lost her career as an actress. She lost in a lot of her relationships with men. She lost her ability to move freely, but really those things led her to find her immense power as an intellectual, as an activist. And as a writer. So in the end, it's not a tragic story. It's an incredible story of resilience and power. So those portraits contribute to telling that story. And your biography on her really is such an immense contributor. And that's amazing that not much had been written about her prior to your biography. So it's so important that you wrote about her and shared her story!
Paula: Yeah. Thank you. I agree. I just agree with everything you just said.
Grace Anna: She's really amazing and I can't wait to share with our listeners my two part episode on her where I deep dive into all the nitty gritties of her life from childhood till death. You mentioned too, and this is worth noting, she was an amazing mother. She had a baby girl when she was incredibly young. I mean, she got married when she was 13/14 years old. So my episode dives into all aspects of this story, her days as an actress, her many affairs.
But really what's important too, and the purpose of my episode, and I love what you write here about when she was writing her autobiography- is to see Mary Robinson's full picture- but also to remember her in the way that she would've wanted. And at the end of her life she was writing her own autobiography and memoirs and you wrote, “she wanted to be remembered as a completely different character, a woman of letters, and as a woman of genius” And I think also- yes, she has this full complex history. She was beautiful. She was an actress. She had these affairs. But also remembering her in the way that she would have wanted, which is that she was a woman of undoubted genius, to use the quote that you quoted before. So that really also was so much a part of your book and a mission behind my episode as well- is to honor her as an intellectual because so often she is not. She's either forgotten altogether or her sexual explorations are emphasized. Her affairs with the Prince and Tarleton etc, and that this immense aspect of her story and her mind is overlooked. So your book does an amazing job at emphasizing that aspect of her story.
Paula: Oh, thank you. And I'm really chuffed that you- I'm just delighted that that's how you see her. That means a lot.
Grace Anna: Yeah, absolutely. It's amazing how this beautiful woman, when she lost the ability to use her body and her looks, she really channeled the power of her mind, what a mind! We are so lucky. In fact, in some sense, we also, as the world, are lucky that that shift happened because she created these incredible written masterpieces.
Grace Anna: Speaking of written masterpieces, you have a new book that just came out. It is a historical fiction novel. It’s called Six Weeks by the Sea. It is about Jane Austen and a six week trip in the summer that she spent in Devon. But could you introduce us a bit to your new book and let us know what it's about?
Paula: Oh sure. So the idea- it's obviously Jane Austen's 250th anniversary this year. So it's a big year for Jane Austen. And over the years when I've been writing and publishing about Jane Austen, people have always said to me, readers and fans, did she ever fall in love? And I always slightly dismissed it and thought, oh, who cares? She's an amazing writer and we don't have to be defined by whether or not we fall in love. But the question sort of haunted me. And then I read a piece by Virginia Wolf and she said, if you read Persuasion, that's when you know Jane Austen must have had her heart broken. She could not have written Persuasion.
So I went back to thinking about the Sidmouth affair, which her sister Cassandra talked about many years later and just thought- “gosh, I just would love to sort of reimagine what it would've been like. To just fall in love with the man that she fell in love with”. And so she really felt that passion, which she was then able to channel into her amazing novels. So it was really just a creative imagining of what those six weeks were like. So each part is a week, so week one, week two, week three, week four. And there's another love interest, but I had to then recreate who would be the man that Jane Austen would fall in love with. What a man, you know? Because she's so incredible. So that was the sort of premise of the book.
Grace Anna: It's fascinating. Can you tell us a bit about this man that she falls in love with?
Paula: Well, we don't know who he was at all. Like the family doesn't know. They just know that he was meant to be very handsome, very amiable, very worthy of Jane Austen. So I had to imagine him. But I did come across a character from real life that I just thought- “oh, I think he would be the sort of person she would fall in love with”. He was an abolitionist like Jane Austen, so he cared about the abolition of the slave trade. So Samuel Rose, my character, who is a real person, is an abolitionist. He loves Cooper. Who was Jane Austen's favorite poet in real life. And he's sensitive. He's a lawyer, but he also has this artistic side. He edited the works of Goldsmith, who Jane Austen loved. He was a friend to Cooper, he was a friend to William Blake, the poet. So he just ticked every box.
He's a real person. It's not him, but that's the kind of man I imagine Jane Austen would fall in love with. So the abolition, and that sort of fed into my work on Dido Belle and my work on Lady Sarah Brocas, of Jane Austen's, absolute contempt of the slave trade and her full support for the abolition of the slave trade. So it was really important to me that that aspect of Jane Austen was there, but in a way that made sense. Not like, “Hey, let me flag this. Here we have this mixed race child, you know, isn't that cool?” I didn't wanna do that. I just wanted to make it very seamless. This is something that meant a lot to her. It meant a lot to the real Samuel Rose, who's not the lover, but someone like him might have felt like that. So it was just a lovely moment in my life just to imagine Jane Austen at the age of 26. We know she was in Sidmouth in 1801. We know that's when she fell in love, and I just wanted to give her six weeks of love.
Grace Anna: Aw, beautiful. It must have been such an enriching experience as a writer too, after having written so much nonfiction about Jane Austen to have this experience of imaginative work about Jane Austen and imagining this very special time in her life that we know some about, but there's also so many holes that need to be filled. So it must have been a very fun experience as a writer.
Paula: No, it was, and it was a challenge because it's never easy and creative writing is way more difficult than nonfiction. But I just thought- let's just do it. Like, just experiment, just see if I can get inside her. And I'm amazed because a couple of people have said- I just felt like I was reading a Jane Austen novel. I was like, oh my goodness, that's, that's actually the best compliment because it's quite a task to try and get inside Jane Austen. But I think as a writer it's important to challenge yourself. I'd always done nonfiction. I was like, give it a go. Like, just see, you know your stuff. You know how people talk, you know, detail. Give it a go. See if you can pull it off. And if you don't, you don't, but at least you've tried.
Grace Anna: Yeah, you’ve got to take that leap of faith and you did an immense job. It's a wonderful book. And for our listeners, I'm going to put in the show notes of the episode, a link to purchase all three of the books we've mentioned today: Six Weeks by the Sea, as well as each biography on Dido Elizabeth Belle and Mary Robinson. And as you mentioned too, we didn't have time to discuss it as much, but there is a movie on Dido Belle that's definitely worth a watch as well, if you want to see another imaginative take on Dido Belle's life. And like I said, we will be releasing our episode of Mary Robinson, so you'll be learning more about her in the coming weeks, which I'm very excited to share with everyone.
But it has been such a pleasure, Paula, speaking with you today. I thank you so much, not only for taking the time, but for your immense work, for putting each of these women's stories out there, including Jane Austen, who you've done extensive work on, and I learned a lot in this conversation today about Jane Austen. So thank you so much for what you do, for being here with me today, and for sharing these women's stories.
Paula: Well, I'd like to thank you for all your research and all your passion and your intellect and the way in which it matters to you. It clearly matters to you that these women have a voice, and I think whilst young women like you are flying that flag, the world's gotta be a better place. So right back at you girl, because you're doing a great job.
Grace Anna: Thank you so so much.
Thank you so much for listening to this special episode from our ArtMuse ArtTalk series, in which I interview the acclaimed author Paula Byrne. We have included a link to purchase Paula Byrne’s biographies on both Dido Elizabeth Belle and Mary Robinson, as well as her recently published historical fiction novel, Six Weeks by The Sea on Jane Austen, in the show notes of this episode.
This interview concludes our ArtMuse ArtTalk series. It has been such a joy to be able to share these conversations with you, and I thank each and every one of our guests for joining the show and sharing their expertise with us.
If you enjoyed our ArtMuse ArtTalk series, we would be so appreciative if you could give us a rating or review on Apple Podcasts or Spotify. And of course, we always encourage our listeners to share their thoughts with us by emailing hello@artmusepodcast.com.
Season Three of ArtMuse, which shares the life stories of artist models who were also performers in their own right, will return this October. We are so excited to share these amazing women's stories with you. Until next time, bye for now.
